An important distinction is slowly being uncovered about the definition of the term "fediverse." Who is it that gets to decide what this place is? How are we being represented? These are not easy questions to answer and if we don't do a better job describing ourselves, then the job will get done for us by people who don't understand the underlying values we hold. #fediverse #meta #threads
@stefan I appreciate your attempt at trying to reach some understanding. The Wikipedia page is probably the worst contender for describing the fediverse at the moment. I think its something we really really have to tackle soon.
Personally, and the way the term was used, since it was first coined, was any software with #OStatus support (later #ActivityPub).
When there were discussions of having a new name, I ran suggestion threads and polls about it, and one suggestion/choice was mycelial, mycelium. I like it so I started using it myself.
By definition: * A mycelium is a single network. * A mycelial is a collection of various mycelium.
Adopting it to #SocialWeb: * The "Fediverse" is one mycelium network.o, based on ActivityPub * "The Federation" / #diaspora* is another mycelium network. * #Matrix is a mycelium network. * #ATproto is another mycelium network. * #XMPP / #Jabber is a mycelium network.
Together, they are called Mycelial Web. A collection of "decentralised, distributed, federated, and open, network". A subset of the Social Web.
A "sister", if you will, of the Mycelial Web is IRC and e-mail, as examples.
So: I. Web A. Social Web 1. IRC 2. E-mail 3. Mycelial Web * Fediverse/ActivityPub * ATproto * diaspora * Matrix * XMPP
I've only ever seen this Threads logo in posts bashing it. It ends up giving it more exposure.
OTOH, a few weeks ago I've seen people here arguing against the top logo, coming up with roundabout reasons to complain about it because it wasn't this-or-that enough (honestly, I'm too much of a cynic to buy it). That just fell right into Meta's lap as a "there's no agreed-upon logo".
That and the constant Mastodon and .social bashing from the inside clearly works to Meta's benefit.
also, it's a pentagram, which I'm sure people from certain cultures (the US Bible Belt?) have an innate resistance towards.
One could make a stretch and argue that the Threads logo is a _very_ stylized version of the original (dots, connections between the dots, "cloud" in the middle). I've seen wilder variation than that in font design.
If I was making an app today and needed a small fedi icon, I'd either use the original or make a small variation by removing the star + larger dots.
@hisham_hm "That just fell right into Meta's lap as a "there's no agreed-upon logo"."
I'm not sure that would have made a difference. My guess is that the reason why they made a new one has very little to do with whether there's an established one already or not and everything to do with branding. They're gonna make an effort to have all the little icons and design elements on their site speak the same design language, because that's the "professional" way to do it.
@frog_reborn @hisham_hm they way the icon works currently it is completely not suited for use at small scales, so we really really need to address this...
@hisham_hm I feel like any effect the logo might have on "reshaping the perception of the fediverse" was at best a secondary concern way behind "let's pick something that aligns with our visuals". But even if not done with direct intent it's still a bit of a cautionary tale about how profit oriented actors several dimensions bigger can possibly even unintentionally warp the whole landscape for the worse simply by way of having different priorities and incentives.
@evan @Gargron seems @chrismessina was the first to discover it many months ago in the resources of the Android app quite awhile ago. I would assume we could just ask some of the Threads devs for more information, maybe @jessel or @wongmjane would be willing to share any information about where this icon comes from?
It was first uploaded, AFAIK, in Wiki Commons by Eukobos (I think it's Eudaimon too), dedicated to the #PublicDomain through #CC0 #CCzero.
It was June 2018.
No one submitted other proposals so it became the accepted logo of the #Fediverse. Variations from other users based on the same logo also came out later.
We, I and @eudaimon, independently, without knowing about each other at all, made the same logo. Mine had different chirality though, and had couple of other details like UN-esque laurel wreath (because we're federation 😀.
After we showed each other our results, we agreed that his version is simpler and more concise, and it will kinda be attributed to both of us.
@drq @eudaimon @evan @Gargron @chrismessina super interesting to hear some backstory! do you happen to have a link to your original version? just to keep in the vault of history
A lot of people think that the pentacle was chosen because of its occult or satanic connotations. And while it would be in Fediverse's rebellious spirit, this was not the case.
My idea was to illustrate the structure of the network. There must be multiple nodes (multiple servers). There must be nothing in the middle (no center). The connections can cross each other, but must never follow the same path twice. No connection must be on top of all of them.
It can't be done with two nodes, because it's just a line and in the middle of the line, there's line. It can be done with triangle, but it's boring. It can not be done with four nodes, because their connection cross in the middle.
So, five nodes it is. Thus, a pentacle.
Also, a pentacle is a classic symbol for a star. And I always wanted to associate the Fediverse with the stars and space in public consciousness.
What's plural of "a fedi node"? "a constellation".
@Dr. Quadragon ❌ @Liaizon Wakest Ha, there was also this, from The Federation era. Five minute mashup by yours truly 😛 The idea was to represent the chaotic nature of the #fediverse.
@laurenshof @Gargron Yeah, I'm not sure what we're supposed to see here. Two people entering a circular corridor? A view of two people hugging a tree from above?
I'm not really a huge fan of the first logo, but at least it's self-descriptive.
@stefan @laurenshof @Gargron The second one is too, from Meta's perspective: a central core element with small hangers-on associated with and reliant on it.
Federation is a term used to describe an action or state occurring over the ActivityPub (or AT) protocol. It’s neither a brand nor owned. In app design, devs use different icons to define open-menu and close-menu actions, different symbols for sending emails — envelopes and paper airplanes — and different symbols to chat widgets among other actions. Meta serves users all over the world, and in some of those places, using a pentagram as a UI convention might be offensive.
@bretcarmichael this is an incredibly rude reply. I have been working in the field of federated and open networks for many many years now and having you chime in to explain federation is quite ridiculous
I’m regret that my feedback offended you. That was not my intent. You posted your thoughts in public. I respectfully offered my own in exchange. Your response is objectively terse and disrespectful. I’ll take your resume at your word, but it’s not a rebuttal. Consider adding language to your profile that says, “I am an information authority. Disagreement is not allowed.” That will deter lesser people, like me. Grab the last word, and have a great weekend.
@bretcarmichael Dang Captain Autismo, no need to get so defensive over someone offering their thoughts. Makes you appear very insecure about that fediverse expertise of yours.
Eine wichtige Unterscheidung über die Definition des Begriffs "Fediversum" wird langsam deutlich. Wer entscheidet, was dieser Ort ist? Wie werden wir repräsentiert? Diese Fragen sind nicht leicht zu beantworten, und wenn wir es nicht schaffen, uns selbst besser zu beschreiben, dann wird diese Aufgabe von Leuten übernommen, die unsere grundlegenden Werte nicht verstehen. #fediversum #meta #threads
"Steigen" große Medienkanäle ins #Fediverse "ein", bilden sie Instanzen, kann das zu strukturellen Verschiebungen führen. Dem Schema Sender und Empfänger folgen viele (wer?) theoretisch und denken Kommunikation wie Kodierung und Dekodierung. Produktionsmittel bleiben, die #Sender im Blick und die Warenpusher Influencer im Nacken, ungleich sortiert.
The second symbol would be much better for Open fediverse. It shows connections, has a O in its center that can be understood as a world and it is also minimalist. You can tell they paid someone who knows how to do his job.
The first icon isn't bad, but it is generic. It isn't as simple, nothing suggest that it is open, a world or universe. It could work as an Internet of things logo o anything else that is connected.
It's a great design. Meta sucks, but there isn't anything bad in this symbol. It doesn't convey a dangerous message and it's better for smaller screens.
I don't understand why the fediverse or Mastodon, etc have Logos. There is no official E-Mail Logo, FTP, etc. It should just get a boring name like "Social Network". Thrn you just ask people "what's your social network tag?" and they say "it's @cooldude on X". Then you can just reply, Oh that's not a social network tag, that's not even connected to the social network standard.
@EcoLogicExplorer I think people are used to seeing an envelope next to an email address.
Not saying that makes it a "logo", but it sort of functions as one, and is useful in some contexts, like quickly scanning a page to find contact information.
@stefan @EcoLogicExplorer I think symbols not logos are really what we are talking about here. Here in Berlin these (☎ ✆) phone symbols are used everywhere. Work vehicles often have a phone number on the side that begins with ☎555-222-3432 etc though the government is now using WhatsApp here way more then "real" phone numbers and they usually have the WhatsApp logo next to it. Its on all the trash cans in the subway here.
The Fediverse is an open network. Period. If a site like Threads or BlueSky offers a closed version of that network, it's not the Fediverse, it's just a walled garden.
The corporate logo here doesn't depict what it is in the way that the actual logo does.
if corporations run the fediverse then it will be just another corporate social media platform.
corporations dont coexist with communities- they exploit them as resources.
first theyll get enough people using the corporate side, increase barriers between the corporate side and demand compliance with THEM, theyll separate, using fedi only to get more people.
fedi will suffer from decrease in use and funding. thats what corporate "fedi" guarantees.
and i dont disagree with those obvious facts, this is where things will go if left unchecked.
flipboard ive always ignored, incidentally. i didnt know it was even significant. medium, as a platform, is absolutely trash. ive watched it go from good to- it demonstrates my point. and threads in particular, is the worst for fedi because of its size, owner and similiarity to fedi and/or pixelfed.
i can think of more examples that are NOT federated, but similar in purpose, tactic & outcome.
@LGS there are a few ways to answer this question. First we might start by defining the terms.
1. By standalone website I assume you mean a "static" website? A static website consists of an .html file and optionally a .css file and maybe some images stored on a server that is accessible through the https protocol. This is a "one way" medium. One person has the ability to change the .html document and then everyone else has the ability to read the document in a web browser.
@LGS You could say that the main difference a fediverse instance has from a static website is interaction between two or more peers. Some way to signal between one website and another website that "something" has happened.
2. If you are asking me if I think its morally ethical to sell something that is being used by others without their consent I would say certainly not.
seeing the Meta one in the context of an indicator coming from an instance-local POV instead of the grand overview POV of the commonly used one is making more sense to me now, so I tried to reconcile the two of them to see how it would work, but I am not very good at that as you can see from the results 😀
@soop it instantly has more reach then everything that we do cause of instragram and facebook's size. so no I think we shouldn't dare underestimate the impact that an icon such as this in their interface might have
Stefan Bohacek
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •I don't really have an answer, but it's certainly interesting to see other people's responses:
stefanbohacek.online/@stefan/1…
stefanbohacek.online/@stefan/1…
Stefan Bohacek
2024-02-17 15:32:03
Torsten mag das.
wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf Stefan Bohacek • • •Stefan Bohacek
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •Yohan Yukiya Sese Cuneta 사요한🦣
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •Personally, and the way the term was used, since it was first coined, was any software with #OStatus support (later #ActivityPub).
When there were discussions of having a new name, I ran suggestion threads and polls about it, and one suggestion/choice was mycelial, mycelium. I like it so I started using it myself.
By definition:
* A mycelium is a single network.
* A mycelial is a collection of various mycelium.
Adopting it to #SocialWeb:
* The "Fediverse" is one mycelium network.o, based on ActivityPub
* "The Federation" / #diaspora* is another mycelium network.
* #Matrix is a mycelium network.
* #ATproto is another mycelium network.
* #XMPP / #Jabber is a mycelium network.
Together, they are called Mycelial Web. A collection of "decentralised, distributed, federated, and open, network". A subset of the Social Web.
A "sister", if you will, of the Mycelial Web is IRC and e-mail, as examples.
So:
I. Web
A. Social Web
1. IRC
2. E-mail
3. Mycelial Web
* Fediverse/ActivityPub
* ATproto
* diaspora
* Matrix
* XMPP
.
wakest ⁂ hat dies geteilt.
Hisham
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •I've only ever seen this Threads logo in posts bashing it. It ends up giving it more exposure.
OTOH, a few weeks ago I've seen people here arguing against the top logo, coming up with roundabout reasons to complain about it because it wasn't this-or-that enough (honestly, I'm too much of a cynic to buy it). That just fell right into Meta's lap as a "there's no agreed-upon logo".
That and the constant Mastodon and .social bashing from the inside clearly works to Meta's benefit.
wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf Hisham • • •Hisham
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •also, it's a pentagram, which I'm sure people from certain cultures (the US Bible Belt?) have an innate resistance towards.
One could make a stretch and argue that the Threads logo is a _very_ stylized version of the original (dots, connections between the dots, "cloud" in the middle). I've seen wilder variation than that in font design.
If I was making an app today and needed a small fedi icon, I'd either use the original or make a small variation by removing the star + larger dots.
fr0g
Als Antwort auf Hisham • • •@hisham_hm
"That just fell right into Meta's lap as a "there's no agreed-upon logo"."
I'm not sure that would have made a difference. My guess is that the reason why they made a new one has very little to do with whether there's an established one already or not and everything to do with branding. They're gonna make an effort to have all the little icons and design elements on their site speak the same design language, because that's the "professional" way to do it.
wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf fr0g • • •fr0g
Als Antwort auf fr0g • • •I feel like any effect the logo might have on "reshaping the perception of the fediverse" was at best a secondary concern way behind "let's pick something that aligns with our visuals".
But even if not done with direct intent it's still a bit of a cautionary tale about how profit oriented actors several dimensions bigger can possibly even unintentionally warp the whole landscape for the worse simply by way of having different priorities and incentives.
Eugen Rochko
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂ hat dies geteilt.
Evan Prodromou
Als Antwort auf Eugen Rochko • • •wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf Evan Prodromou • • •Evan Prodromou
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf Evan Prodromou • • •crossgolf_rebel - kostenlose Kwalitätsposts mag das.
Yohan Yukiya Sese Cuneta 사요한🦣
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •@evan @Gargron @chrismessina @eudaimon @youronlyone Yep, it was him.
It was first uploaded, AFAIK, in Wiki Commons by Eukobos (I think it's Eudaimon too), dedicated to the #PublicDomain through #CC0 #CCzero.
It was June 2018.
No one submitted other proposals so it became the accepted logo of the #Fediverse. Variations from other users based on the same logo also came out later.
See: commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fil…
#History
File:Fediverse logo proposal.svg - Wikimedia Commons
commons.wikimedia.orgDr. Quadragon ❌
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •That another person is me.
@evan @Gargron @chrismessina @eudaimon @youronlyone
wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf Dr. Quadragon ❌ • • •Dr. Quadragon ❌
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •Funny enough, it was a multiple invention.
We, I and @eudaimon, independently, without knowing about each other at all, made the same logo. Mine had different chirality though, and had couple of other details like UN-esque laurel wreath (because we're federation 😀.
After we showed each other our results, we agreed that his version is simpler and more concise, and it will kinda be attributed to both of us.
@evan @Gargron @chrismessina
GunChleoc hat dies geteilt.
wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf Dr. Quadragon ❌ • • •Dr. Quadragon ❌
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •I have it on me, somewhere. Wait, I'll try to find it.
@eudaimon @evan @Gargron @chrismessina
Dr. Quadragon ❌
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •There it is.
files.equivalent.me/s/7fGNPa97…
@eudaimon @evan @Gargron @chrismessina
p1.svg
Nextcloudwakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf Dr. Quadragon ❌ • • •Dr. Quadragon ❌
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •There's more backstory to it.
@eudaimon
Dr. Quadragon ❌
Als Antwort auf Dr. Quadragon ❌ • • •A lot of people think that the pentacle was chosen because of its occult or satanic connotations. And while it would be in Fediverse's rebellious spirit, this was not the case.
My idea was to illustrate the structure of the network. There must be multiple nodes (multiple servers). There must be nothing in the middle (no center). The connections can cross each other, but must never follow the same path twice. No connection must be on top of all of them.
It can't be done with two nodes, because it's just a line and in the middle of the line, there's line. It can be done with triangle, but it's boring. It can not be done with four nodes, because their connection cross in the middle.
So, five nodes it is. Thus, a pentacle.
Also, a pentacle is a classic symbol for a star. And I always wanted to associate the Fediverse with the stars and space in public consciousness.
What's plural of "a fedi node"? "a constellation".
@eudaimon
Dr. Quadragon ❌
Als Antwort auf Dr. Quadragon ❌ • • •oh, look, a coin!
(the metal one is defective, lacking one node, because I suck at metal casting)
Dated 2018
been wanting to redo this project ever since.
@eudaimon @evan @Gargron @chrismessina
Jason Robinson 🐍 🍻 🚴
Als Antwort auf Dr. Quadragon ❌ • • •wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf Jason Robinson 🐍 🍻 🚴 • • •Laurens Hof
Als Antwort auf Eugen Rochko • • •Stefan Bohacek
Als Antwort auf Laurens Hof • • •@laurenshof @Gargron Yeah, I'm not sure what we're supposed to see here. Two people entering a circular corridor? A view of two people hugging a tree from above?
I'm not really a huge fan of the first logo, but at least it's self-descriptive.
P Stewart
Als Antwort auf Stefan Bohacek • • •Stefan Bohacek
Als Antwort auf P Stewart • • •Mike Fraser
Als Antwort auf Laurens Hof • • •wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf Mike Fraser • • •Bret Carmichael 🇺🇦
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf Bret Carmichael 🇺🇦 • • •Bret Carmichael 🇺🇦
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •Andrew
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf Andrew • • •Andrew
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •ophiocephalic 🐍
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •GunChleoc hat dies geteilt.
wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •teilten dies erneut
Erik Uden 🍑 und Karl Heinz Häsliprinz haben dies geteilt.
wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •Erik Uden 🍑
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •Matze Schmidt
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •-> masto.ai/@matzeschmidt/1121402…
Matze Schmidt
2024-03-22 16:29:45
Jon (now at neuromatch.social)
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf Jon (now at neuromatch.social) • • •Jon (now at neuromatch.social)
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf Jon (now at neuromatch.social) • • •Resolviendo la incógnita 🌐
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •The second symbol would be much better for Open fediverse. It shows connections, has a O in its center that can be understood as a world and it is also minimalist. You can tell they paid someone who knows how to do his job.
The first icon isn't bad, but it is generic. It isn't as simple, nothing suggest that it is open, a world or universe. It could work as an Internet of things logo o anything else that is connected.
wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf Resolviendo la incógnita 🌐 • • •Resolviendo la incógnita 🌐
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •Stefan
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •It should just get a boring name like "Social Network". Thrn you just ask people "what's your social network tag?" and they say "it's @cooldude on X". Then you can just reply, Oh that's not a social network tag, that's not even connected to the social network standard.
Stefan Bohacek
Als Antwort auf Stefan • • •@EcoLogicExplorer I think people are used to seeing an envelope next to an email address.
Not saying that makes it a "logo", but it sort of functions as one, and is useful in some contexts, like quickly scanning a page to find contact information.
wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf Stefan Bohacek • • •wakest ⁂ hat dies geteilt.
sɹɐʎA xɘlA 💻➡🗑
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag • • •gettie ( arc)
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf gettie ( arc) • • •@getimiskon lemme know if this works for you: design.penpot.app/#/view/af205…
what language would you like to translate it into?
Raccoon🏳️🌈
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •The Fediverse is an open network. Period. If a site like Threads or BlueSky offers a closed version of that network, it's not the Fediverse, it's just a walled garden.
The corporate logo here doesn't depict what it is in the way that the actual logo does.
trdebunked
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •there is no corporate fediverse.
if corporations run the fediverse then it will be just another corporate social media platform.
corporations dont coexist with communities- they exploit them as resources.
first theyll get enough people using the corporate side, increase barriers between the corporate side and demand compliance with THEM, theyll separate, using fedi only to get more people.
fedi will suffer from decrease in use and funding. thats what corporate "fedi" guarantees.
wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf trdebunked • • •trdebunked
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •and i dont disagree with those obvious facts, this is where things will go if left unchecked.
flipboard ive always ignored, incidentally. i didnt know it was even significant. medium, as a platform, is absolutely trash. ive watched it go from good to- it demonstrates my point. and threads in particular, is the worst for fedi because of its size, owner and similiarity to fedi and/or pixelfed.
i can think of more examples that are NOT federated, but similar in purpose, tactic & outcome.
wakest ⁂
Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag • • •@LGS there are a few ways to answer this question. First we might start by defining the terms.
1. By standalone website I assume you mean a "static" website?
A static website consists of an .html file and optionally a .css file and maybe some images stored on a server that is accessible through the https protocol. This is a "one way" medium. One person has the ability to change the .html document and then everyone else has the ability to read the document in a web browser.
wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •@LGS
You could say that the main difference a fediverse instance has from a static website is interaction between two or more peers. Some way to signal between one website and another website that "something" has happened.
2. If you are asking me if I think its morally ethical to sell something that is being used by others without their consent I would say certainly not.
c-x-b
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •Stefan Bohacek
Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag • • •スーパーディック
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •With a little imagination Facebook's fediverse logo is literally Goatse.
There, I've ruined it forever.
wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •in black:
in white:
wakest ⁂ hat dies geteilt.
Forth Co-Processor
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •Now can you make one crossed out with a big X?
wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf Forth Co-Processor • • •DeeAnn Little
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf DeeAnn Little • • •DeeAnn Little
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf DeeAnn Little • • •HyperSoop
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf HyperSoop • • •HyperSoop
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •maybe this icon will become irrelevant once they actually finish implementing activitypub
afaik rn it's used to indicate the count of fedi interactions on a post which aren't yet integrated properly
wakest ⁂
Als Antwort auf HyperSoop • • •HyperSoop
Als Antwort auf wakest ⁂ • • •